girl-talk, with an edge

"Slander" and "defamation of character," not to mention invasion of privacy, are serious issues. Some expert in law and ethics could probably lay out a rock-solid argument and convince me Florida attorney Todd J. Hollis deserves to win his case against Tasha C. Joseph, creator of the web site http://www.dontdatehimgirl.com, a "cost-effective weapon in the war on cheating men." The web site includes a database of former boyfriends who are "cheaters, liars, and cads." Any woman who registers can contribute a name, or see if someone's already dished dirt on her prospective date. Hollis's suit alleges that "two Pittsburgh-area women and other anonymous posters" smeared him online. Now, he's fighting back. Hmmmm, well. If this successful attorney had shown his dates respect, as if their feelings and experiences were as important as his own, would he find himself in this spot today--pilloried online, not by one, but by several women? Oh, OK. Maaaybe he would, if he was actually a Knight in Shining Armor and just kept choosing these bitchy, venomous, conniving women, who had to take out their anger at their own fathers on him. Actually, when I read about Todd Hollis's woes, the first thing I thought of was sociologist Shere Hite's seminal 1987 work, Women as Agents of Revolutionary Change: The Hite Reports and Beyond. In that collection of essays, Hite raises the distinctly un-P.C. notion that late-20th Century women in the West, despite being wage-earners, despite no longer depending on men, are still battling an unfair social setup in regards to intimate relationships with men in marriage and particularly in the "singles" scene. Men have ever been socialized to dominate, to "star" in relationships. Given the clash of this early socialization with women's rising independence in the 60s, 70s, and beyond, men, according to Hite, have resorted to new stratagems to maintain their control in relationships with women. She describes a pattern of pervasive male contempt towards women in the dating scene. Using many anonymous personal statements from men and women, Hite tries to get at the truth behind the contemporary cultural archetypes of the "doggy" and "commitment-phobic" man. These bits of lore about single men tacitly acknowledge a social reality against which Tasha Johnson wages "war." How Johnson's approach contrasts to that of a spate of 80s and 90s books aimed at women struggling with heterosexual relationships, including The Rules, a retro-tract about dating aimed at women, with advice like, "Don't call him, let him call you," and the hideously titled Women Who Love Too Much: When You Keep Wishing and Hoping He'll Change. Don't blame anybody else, girls, was the message of these best-sellers. Your frustration only shows you need to work on yourself more. Tone down your approach, lower your expectations of men. I may well take Tasha Joseph more seriously than she takes herself, hoping she humiliates Todd Hollis in court, and that her web site survives in its present form. Her "tool" is corny, for sure. But she has a kind of daring.

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I don't know. This whole

I don't know. This whole thing gives me the willies. Yes, there are liars and cheaters of both genders "out there" and yes, it would be nice to warn others before they too get caught up in the toxic emotional web. But this feels to me like it's crossed a line somewhere. Todd Hollis may be the 2-faced liar Tasha Joseph's site purports but I wonder if this does anything but make the anomosity between the genders worse, instead of better. This is not to suggest that anyone has to lie down and take it when a cheater enters your life. Nor am I suggesting that if one has an honest opportunity to warn somebody, said opportunity should be bypassed. Joseph was going to create a site for men but decided against it when the outcry from the women subscribing to her site became too much. Remarks amounted to little more than "you're letting the sisterhood down if you do this." If we are trying for equal, I think this is the wrong way to go about it. As to the power in dating, and the pervasive male contempt, I'm not arguing with that at all. It definitely exists. The men trying to take back their manhood remind me of the Christians who believe Christmas has been stolen from them. Too much bluster, not enough critical thinking. It is all too easy to blame the "other side," without taking a deep look at the person in the mirror. Tasha Joseph has some chutzpah, that's for sure. The Todd Hollis' of the world need to learn that their actions will catch up with them, karmically or otherwise. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

I'd heard about this site,

I'd heard about this site, but it's the first time I've actually looked at it. Although there are undoubtedly women who take advantage of men, too, the deck is mostly stacked in men's favor, if only biologically. I was especially struck by the warnings that "he never wears a condom." Talk about feeling entitled... spreading both sperm and disease, expecting not to be held accountable. I think the site is needed. Karen, your post could have been labeled as a PSA.

All right, I figured out

All right, I figured out what bothers me so much about this. It continues to cast women as the victim and men as the victimizer. Yes, there is an imbalance of power but if we continue imposing those roles nothing changes. In scanning some of the posts on Johnson's site, I see little or nothing that shows what the women did to stop the victimization. Refuses to use a condom? Put your clothes back on and show him the door. Refuses to leave? Call the police and report him for trespassing. (And yes, I realize that this is more black and white than life really is.) One woman went back to her sociopath (because she still loved him) when she clearly should have changed the locks and her phone numbers. Wouldn't the world be better served if women were socialized to say no and stop being pleasers and enablers? And wouldn't the world be better served if men were socialized to understand there are consequences for their actions and no means no? Women need to understand they don't need a lover to be complete and that a lover/boyfriend/husband/whatever at any price is too high a price to pay. Men need to learn that they don't call the shots, no matter how much they might think they do.

Points taken. Still, I think

Points taken. Still, I think for many of these women, exposing these men on the web was their way of changing things, if not for themselves, then in order to give other women a heads-up. There was a time, when you would more easily know more about a man, or a woman, for that matter, simply because people were so much less anonymous, and women were kept more within the protection of their families. It had to be something of a deterrent to know that a woman's brothers or father would come after you. I wouldn't want to return to those days, either, but there needs to be a new way for women to find out the truth about a man's character, short of hiring a private detective. For women to share such revealing information with one another seems like a step along the way of progress, if not the ultimate goal. A bit like wanted posters, perhaps, but when you consider how much more of the burden of relationship and sexual morality women have had to bear historically, I have no qualms about evening out that double standard. Unfortunately, I suspect that for most of these men, having their profiles, w/ or w/out photos, will probably not do much to hold them back. Most women do not go looking on the internet for this kind of information until after the fact... Finally, biology does make women both more susceptible (oxytocin) and more vulnerable (pregnancy-- nothing is 100% effective). Men get off, perhaps not scot-free, on both counts, but are certainly less "involved."

"Unfortunately, I suspect

"Unfortunately, I suspect that for most of these men, having their profiles, w/ or w/out photos, will probably not do much to hold them back. Most women do not go looking on the internet for this kind of information until after the fact..." I do hear and understand your commentary, Lyssa. And your issues are good ones too. (This is what I like so much about being a part of this, we can discuss and still be respectful of one another. We can also agree to disagree with no harm done.) Over lunch with one of the clerks from the roomful, we discussed this and got a young man's perspective as well since her boyfriend had come along for the ride. While the intent of the website is one I can understand and even, to a point, agree with; there is no guarantee that the information is accurate. How is one doing research supposed to know that it isn't some female psychopath just trying to get her own back at some imagined violation? (My fellow clerk did say she would tend to believe the woman's story over the man's story but that still isn't a guarantee that the story is truthful.) The young man with us told a story of being on an athletic trip on which a member of the opposite team raped a young woman in front of his friends and then tossed her out of the house. When our young man's team returned home, the coach sat them down and gave them a talk about personal responsibility and the reality of 20 years to life the other kid was going to get. When we asked what he thought of this website, he shrugged his shoulders and said it probably wasn't going to stop anyone from doing anything and that it still comes down to personal responsibility. It's yet another complex issue with no clear cut answers for anyone.

Lyssa, Imagine for a second,

Lyssa,

Imagine for a second, that your coworker who does not like you, or a competitor who would like to see you go down, goes to a similar web site and posts very derogatory (and untrue) story about you, including your picture. What would you do? Would you "just create a new account and rebuke it"? Or would you take him to court and then "hope that he humilates you there?"

Regards

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